asa first 22 sailboat

Test sail: ASA First 22

asa first 22 sailboat

There is a laundry list of things that make a sail-training boat great and most of them are based on 

In other words, it’s not easy to build the perfect sail training boat. But a partnership between world-class manufacturer Beneteau and the American Sailing Association is a good place to start. compromises. It needs to be big enough to be comfortable for an instructor and at least a few students, but not so big as to be intimidating. It needs to be stable but responsive. It needs to be simple enough to learn the basics on but have enough options to take sailors to the next level. 

asa first 22 sailboat

It was a warm and sunny morning in Annapolis Harbor and the wind was slow to show up. We checked out the boat at the dock while we waited for the zephyrs to fill in. 

The first thing that you notice when you see the First 22, is the enormous cockpit. You could fit five adults for a lesson and it would be positively luxurious for any group smaller than that, as ours was. The cockpit is plenty comfortable, thanks to the boat’s 8-foot 2-inch beam and nicely angled coamings. 

The boat has twin rudders and a swing keel that extends to 5 feet 11 inches.  The sail plan has a 172-squarefoot, square-top mainsail, fractional roller-furling genoa and optional spinnaker. 

The sail controls are simple but varied enough to really teach students how to get into the finer points of sail trim. Of course the halyards are all led to the companionway, meaning that students who don’t yet have their sealegs won’t have to venture out of the cockpit for anything other than flaking the mainsail. 

asa first 22 sailboat

With the wind starting to fill in, we raised the mainsail, unfurled the jib and searched for breeze. Although the conditions were very light, the boat was moving and responsive, a good trait for a sailtraining boat when you can’t always choose the weather you might have for a sailing lesson. Tacking was easy and we never felt in danger of ended up in irons or having to throw our weight around despite the lack of wind. 

Thankfully the wind picked up as we neared midday and the First 22 had a chance to show her stuff. Even though it was light, probably 5 knots, the 22 was sprightly and light on her feet. At one point, traffic in the harbor gave us an opportunity to pick through the anchorage and boat responded well to having to snake around mooring balls and transoms. 

The First 22 is available to schools— special financing programs are available— as well as to the public, where it could serve as a fun and casual daysailer for less-experienced sailors. Schools will appreciate it’s ability to appeal to a wide range of students, from beginners to more advanced sailors. 

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Beneteau Asa 22

Simple design, built for day sailing.

The Beneteau ASA First 22 is built for day sailing, featuring a hull with positive flotation and an extended cockpit to accommodate more family or friends. Her sail plan is simple and designed to wring the last knot out of any breeze. She also features an extended cockpit to give sailors more room, a rig designed specifically to be easy to sail, and ergonomic and safety innovations to ensure that every sail is comfortable and safe.

Beneteau ASA First 22 - Swell Time under sail

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BoatTest.com Reviews the Beneteau First 22

asa first 22 sailboat

Key Features

  • Multi-purpose winches and jammers
  • Low center of gravity and twin rudders provide feedback
  • Swing keel for added stability
  • Extended cockpit
  • Capacity for 4 students and instructor
  • Rig designed specifically for sail training
  • Lifelines, self-bailing cockpit and positive flotation

Specifications

Beneteau ASA First 22 (2015-) Specifications
Length Overall 21′
6.40 m
Tested Weight N/A
Hull Length 20′ 6”
6.25 m
Shallow Ballast Weight N/A
L.W.L 19′ 8”
6.00 m
Deep Ballast Weight N/A
Beam 8′ 2”
2.49 m
Fuel Cap N/A
Draft (Deep Keel) 5′ 11”
1.80 m
Water Cap N/A
Shallow Draft (Shallow Keel) 2′ 4”
.71 m
Bridge Clearance N/A
Air Draught (max) N/A Mainsail (classic) 172 sq ft
15.99 m²
Deadrise/Transom N/A Genoa (105 %) 97 sq ft
9.01 m²
Max Headroom N/A Asymmetric Spinnaker 334 sq ft
31.04 m²
Dry Weight 2,729 lbs.
1,238 kg
Prices, features, designs, and equipment are subject to change. Please see your local dealer or visit the builder’s website for the latest information available on this boat model.

Engine Options

Beneteau ASA First 22 (2015-) Engine options
Std. Power Not Available
Tested Power Currently no test numbers
Opt. Power Not Available

Printer Frienly

Beneteau ASA First 22 (2015-) Captain’s Report

Beneteau ASA First 22 sailing shot

Standard and Optional Equipment

Beneteau ASA First 22 (2015-) Standard and Optional Equipment

Beneteau ASA First 22 (2015-) Warranty

Beneteau ASA First 22 (2015-) Warranty Information
Warranties change from time to time. While BoatTEST.com has tried to ensure the most up-to-date warranty offered by each builder, it does not guarantee the accuracies of the information presented below. Please check with the boat builder or your local dealer before you buy any boat.

Beneteau ASA First 22 (2015-) Price

Beneteau ASA First 22 (2015-) Price
Pricing Range $30,000.00
Prices, features, designs, and equipment are subject to change. Please see your local dealer or visit the builder’s website for the latest information available on this boat model.
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New Beneteau-ASA First 22 Set to Debut at Annapolis Sailboat Show

ASAFirst22

Beneteau and the American Sailing Association (ASA) have announced the world premiere of the ASA First 22 at the upcoming Annapolis Sailboat Show, October 9-13 2014.

Beneteau America and the ASA initially announced their partnership at last year’s Annapolis boat show and are now eager to reveal the fruit of their collaboration, a new ASA-exclusive sail training vessel using Beneteau’s popular First 20 as its inspiration.

THE PERFECT TRAINING VESSEL

The new boat is being produced in the USA at Beneteau’s factory in Marion, South Carolina. Some of its features include an extended cockpit to give students and instructors more room, a rig designed specifically for sail training, and ergonomic and safety innovations to ensure that every sail is comfortable and safe.

The research and development team at Beneteau used input from ASA instructors, schools, and leading competitive sailors to refine and adapt the Finot, Conq & Associates design of its very successful First 20. This collaboration has produced a singularly modern sail training vessel to make learning how to sail easier, safer and more fun!

“Throughout the process, we have sought the input and feedback of a representative group of ASA affiliated schools and instructors. Since they have influenced the initial design of the boat and continue to offer valuable input, we’re confident the new ASA First 22 will be a great success,” noted Lenny Shabes, ASA’s founder and chairman of the board.

STRATEGIC POSITIONNING

“This project is particularly relevant and exciting to Beneteau; building small sailing vessels to invite more people to experience the thrill of sailing is exactly what our company’s success is built upon,” explained Laurent Fabre, President of Beneteau America. “We feel very fortunate to partner with ASA to offer a new and exciting boat for their associated schools to attract new sailors. We’re confident this new vessel will enhance their students’ and instructors’ time on the water. And it’s just the beginning!”

The ASA First 22 will be offered at $29,900 MSRP.

Fabre further explained that Beneteau America negotiated a leasing program exclusive to ASA affiliate schools to help them get equipped quickly, while minimizing the upfront investment.

The new ASA First 22 will be revealed at the 2014 Annapolis Sailboat Show, October 9th – 13th.

Naval Architect: Finot – Conq

GENERAL SPECIFICATIONS

Length overall Hull length L.W.L. Hull beam Light displacement Draft – Swing keel board up (down) Bridge clearance

STANDARD SAIL LAYOUT AND AREA

Mainsail (classic) Genoa (100 %) Asymmetrical spinnaker

CE CERTIFICATION (PROVISIONAL)

Category C – 5 people Category D – 5 people

asa first 22 sailboat

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The First 22, based on “Clémentine”, the Finot Group’s well-received mini-tonner, is primarily a high-performance sailing yacht.

Naval designer :  Groupe Finot

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asa first 22 sailboat

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FOUND: Owner's Manual for ASA First 22

  • Thread starter unfeast
  • Start date May 25, 2020
  • Beneteau Owner Forums
  • Ask A Beneteau Owner

unfeast

I am having trouble locating the owner's manual for the [2015] First 20/ASA First 22 (same hull and keel, different layout). In particular, I am interested in the schematic, parts list, and maintenance procedure for the keel-lifting mechanism. The seller reports an occasional small amount of water entry via the keel mechanism while sailing. Is this common with Beneteau lifting keels? Can it be remedied by a good greasing or some other maintenance? And (OT) I understand there is a device made to ease in the lowering of the mast. But without the basic owner's manual or much else out there on the internet, I am having trouble going ahead with the purchase.  

mdibella

I'd start by signing up for an account here: http://spareparts.beneteauusa.com/ I don't see any documentation available as a spare part for F20/ASA22, but there are some diagrams on the site that might be useful.  

Is that site maintained? It doesn’t use SSL and looks like something out of 1997. I expected to see a “This site best viewed in Netscape Navigator” gif at the bottom. At any rate, “I” have signed up for it. We’ll see if “I“ get access, as it appears it is a manual approval process. Thanks!  

Davidasailor26

Davidasailor26

Haha, yeah, it looks a little long in the tooth, but it is THE place to go for Beneteau specific parts. As a slight consolation they do switch over to an SSL site before you buy anything.  

UPDATE: I Have received a Beneteau ASA First 22 Owners Manual. It’s in French, but Google Translate has helped. Alas, there are no specific instructions for maintenance of the jack screw.  

Attachments

  • FIRST_22_Owner's Manual in French.pdf 3.8 MB Views: 543

Hunter216

I also own a 2015 First 22. I have never experienced ingress of water via the keel. I would not accept this as normal and, as with any purchase of a used boat, would recommend a professional survey prior to completing the purchase. I have my mast stepped by a boatyard so do not use any devices. However, I think Catalinadirect.com may have something which might work for you. I sail my First 22 on Lake Tahoe; it's a wonderful lake boat. Sporty and comfortable for 4-5 crew. I do have an owner's manual (in English) but don't have access to it right now. (It's on the boat and I'm not.) BTW: Lifting the keel is a chore. It takes about 80 turns on the manual winch. I use a Milwaukee V28 drill with a right angle adaptor and a winch bit which makes raising the lowering the keel a cinch.  

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asa first 22 sailboat

Design Review: Beneteau First 21.0

We recently came across this review of our learn-to-sail boat, the Beneteau First 21.0 .  It’s sometimes called the First 210.  Many Europeans call it the Baby Ben .

Beneteau First 21.0 sloop sailing fast upwind.

It’s the smallest sailboat made by the largest (and oldest) sailboat manufacturer in the world.  It’s two and a half editions, or generations, or models old depending on how one defines that.  Started with the First 21.0; became the First 20.  (Boat didn’t shrink.)  Then, Beneteau and ASA (American Sailing Association) teamed up to produce a slightly modified version – that’s the “half” to which I refer – called the ASA Trainer or First 22.  (Again, the boat didn’t grow.)  The chief difference on this one is that they made a smaller cabin and larger cockpit.

asa first 22 pair

But, all versions have these things in common:

  • Hull.  (Boat body)  The size and shape are the same.
  • Keel.  (The fin that stops the boat from going sideways and from flipping over.)
  • Rudders.  (Steering fins.)  Yes, plural.  There are two.
  • Rig.  The spars (poles that hold the sails up, out, etc), and basic sailplan, are the same except for the squared-off top of the mainsail on the newer boats.

Bob Perry, a highly esteemed naval architect and author, with a regular column on design in Sailing magazine, penned this article some time ago. Here are his words, and some pics we saw fit to slip in…

Perry on Design: the Beneteau First 21.0.

(Bob’s prose appears below in quotes.  Any editorial notes I couldn’t resist are indented in parentheses as I’ve done here.)

“Let’s go small and look at a trailerable boat. This one is from the board of Group Finot and built by Beneteau. It is a very different approach, abandoning tradition and going after speed and convenience with modern design features.

ben blueprint

“The benefit of this type of boat is the ability to move easily to exotic or semi-exotic locations for regattas. The 210 will make a great daysailer or a camp-style cruiser. While trailerable sailboats are seldom examples of refined design, the First 210 shows design innovation aimed at sparkling performance and eye appeal. This boat is also unsinkable.

ben trailer

“With an LOA of 21 feet, the First 210 shows a modern, round bilge hull form with a very broad transom to give it dinghylike proportions. Look carefully at the plan view, deck layout or interior. Note the location of maximum beam. In most modern designs the maximum beam is located at or around station six. If you use the same system of establishing stations and break the 210’s DWL into 10 segments, you will find the max beam around station nine! There is even a curious little hook in the deck line right at station nine. The result of this shape is extreme maximization of the small volume available in 21 feet and a wide platform aft to optimize the righting moment effect of crew weight.

(We’ve always called this boat a big dinghy with a keel on it.  A dinghy is a sailboat that can flip over and requires the crew’s weight on the rail to hold it down.  The Beneteau First 21.0 is very sensitive to crew weight, and reacts immediately to changes – but it won’t flip over if the crew fails to react.  That makes it ideal for learning and training.)

ben 20 birdseye

“The extremely high-aspect-ratio centerboard ( ed. note: it’s a ballasted swing keel, not a centerboard or centerboard keel) is housed in an odd shaped nacelle below the hull for a board-up draft of 2 feet, 3 inches. Almost every appendage is a candidate for “ellipticalization” these days, and I find it interesting that the designers have ended this board in a sharp point. In profile, the rudder looks ridiculously small until you realize that there are in fact two rudders. They are canted outboard at 15 degrees. With this extreme distribution of beam aft a normal rudder would pull almost clear of the water at high degrees of heel. With the two rudders, when the boat is heeled one of the rudders will still be at an effective working angle with the water. This is a slick way of reducing the required draft of the rudders. Note that the draft of the twin rudders is the same as the draft of the board housing. The rudders are linked through the member at the top of the open transom.

ben 20 sailing

(The design was great by itself, but what puts it over the top is the twin rudders.  Sailboats lean to the side naturally, as shown in the pic above. The more they lean, however, the less effective their rudder (steering fin) becomes.  It loses its bite on the water, so it has to be held to one side to go straight.  This creates drag and further reduces its effectiveness.  But the twin rudders on the First 21.0, each one angled outward, become straight when the boat heels a normal amount, and when the boat heels too much, the rudder angle isn’t bad. This makes for a forgiving feel that allows students to learn from mistakes rather than be confused or overwhelmed by them.  And that makes them better able to sail any boat afterward.)

“There are no overhangs on this little packet. The bow profile shows a hint of concavity to allow some flare into the forward sections. There is also a tiny amount of tumblehome in the midsection with a moderate BWL.

“The shrouds are taken to the deck edge allowing a small jib to be sheeted inside. The mainsheet sheets to a single attachment point on the cockpit sole. All halyards lead aft to jammers within easy reach of the helm. The spar is deck stepped with a hinged step. The interior is a one piece GRP molding with small sink and one burner stove. The portable head is under the V-berth. The small interior space is divided by a trunk that carries that top of the swing keel. A hinged leaf table is attached to this trunk. The four berths are all adult sized.

“On deck, the swim ladder and outboard bracket fit neatly between the twin rudders. The two cockpit lockers contain a space specifically for the outboard fuel tank. The bubblelike desk is striking and set off by a varnished mahogany toerail.

asa first 22 1 boat 1 couple

“The First 210 appears to combine careful styling with performance and safety. The general approach to this design is similar to the Mini-Transatlantic Class, but the boat is not as radical in proportions as a true mini-transat racer. Beneteau’s tooling of molded parts is as good as any in the business and their approach to finish and style is perhaps the best in the business. These aspects combine to ensure that the little 210 will be a standout.”

(“Mini-transat” refers to the Mini 6.5 class boat: 6.5 meters, basically the same as the first 21.0.  It’s a serious racer.  How serious?  They are raced singlehanded across the Atlantic – with spinnaker.  No shit. They have twin rudders like the Beneteaus.  This class is also raced doublehanded for some regattas.)

ben b & w spinn

We love this boat, and while they’re fewer and farther between, and much more expensive to buy than the boats more commonly used in sailing schools (J-24’s and Sonars come to mind), they’re worth it as they just work better for teaching.

“Don’t take our word for it!”  Everyone says they have the best boat.  But this is the only design ever endorsed for sailing instruction by a national sail training or sailing school organization such as ASA or US Sailing.

Here are a couple of related links…

  • Bob Perry’s web site
  • Mini 6.5 class web site (Mini Transat)

8 thoughts on “Design Review: Beneteau First 21.0”

This is a great article. I’m a newb and in Japan looking at a “Baby Ben ” for sale. Before this article I thought it was special , now I’m in love

I doubt you’ll be sorry if you get one! They’re super versatile. Some of our new Club members this past season had a lot of time on J/24’s and 105’s prior to joining us, and they fell in love with the Baby Ben by comparison to the J/24. The First 21 is a pedigree design that happens to be comfortable, ergonomic and also very forgiving. Good luck! Send us a pic if you get one.

The Beneteau First 21.0 is definitely a nice boat. It would be interesting to know why Europeans call it “Baby Ben.” I would be grateful if you could tell me!

For a long time, it was the smallest Beneteau made. They now make one or two models smaller than it. So, the family grows…

Is it safe to dry out on the mud? I would like to use in the Solent but many anchorage’s dry out.

Hi Graham: While we’ve seen plenty of photos of boats adry on the Solent, etc, we’ve not experienced that for ourselves. The 21 has a retractable keel, and if left to its own devices, the hull will lower down to the trailing edge of the keel if the keel is supported on the bottom. If not, it will sink down into the mud and the hull will rest on it. The hull is wide and relatively flat further aft, so that would keep the boat level. However, the rudders on the older models (if not all) do not retract. If they rested on firmer substrate, they could be damaged. So, the net-net? Dunno! But, if the bottom is soft, you should be fine.

Any idea where to get the outboard engine vertical track mount? I really just need the part that slides up and down that the outboard mounts to. Thanks!

I MIGHT have an extra – DM me through the site’s contact page and I’ll keep in touch with you about it!

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COMMENTS

  1. Beneteau ASA First 22

    The new ASA First 22 is built in the USA at Beneteau's factory in Marion, South Carolina. Even though the boat was designed for schools the ASA First 22 makes a great day sailor - perfect for family sails and helping friends and children learn the ropes. ASA Members and ASA Affiliates should contact their local Beneteau Dealer for more ...

  2. First 22

    First 22. Description. Video. Specifications. Born from the collaboration of Beneteau America and the American Sailing Association, the First 22 is a singularly modern sail training vessel that make learning how to sail easier, safer and more fun! NAVAL DESIGNER : Finot - Conq Architects. YouTube est désactivé.

  3. FIRST 22 (BENETEAU)

    It takes into consideration "reported" sail area, displacement and length at waterline. The higher the number the faster speed prediction for the boat. A cat with a number 0.6 is likely to sail 6kts in 10kts wind, a cat with a number of 0.7 is likely to sail at 7kts in 10kts wind. KSP = (Lwl*SA÷D)^0.5*0.5

  4. The ASA First 22 by Beneteau

    First sail video aboard Beneteau America #ASAFirst22 at the 2015 Annapolis Spring Boat Show with Sailtime .

  5. ASA First 22 Now Available

    The retail price is $29,900, but there is a special limited time price for ASA members! Contact Chris Doscher, the Beneteau America Sailboat Sales Manager, at 843.810.2020 or by email at [email protected] to learn more about this deal. Designed in collaboration with Beneteau, the ASA First 22 is is recognized for its safety features ...

  6. The ASA First 22

    The ASA First 22 is a product of the collaboration between Beneteau's ace design team and the input of a team of ASA's schools and instructors and it will be debuted at the 2014 Annapolis Sailboat Show October 9-13. The new sailboat, ASA First 22, is being produced in the USA at Beneteau's factory in Marion, South Carolina. Some of its ...

  7. Sailboats First 22

    The R&D team at Beneteau used input from ASA instructors, schools, and leading competitive sailors to refine and adapt the Finot, Conq & Associates design of its very successful First 20. The First 22 features a hull with positive flotation and an extended cockpit to accommodate more family, friends or students. Her sail plan is simple and ...

  8. Test sail: ASA First 22

    The result of that partnership is the ASA First 22. We were able to test sail an early version of the boat in Annapolis last fall. It was a warm and sunny morning in Annapolis Harbor and the wind was slow to show up. We checked out the boat at the dock while we waited for the zephyrs to fill in. The first thing that you notice when you see the ...

  9. Beneteau Asa 22

    The Beneteau ASA First 22 is built for day sailing, featuring a hull with positive flotation and an extended cockpit to accommodate more family or friends. Her sail plan is simple and designed to wring the last knot out of any breeze. She also features an extended cockpit to give sailors more room, a rig designed specifically to be easy to sail ...

  10. First 22 Sailboats for Sale in San Diego & Newport Beach, California

    The research and development team at Beneteau used input from ASA instructors, schools, and leading competitive sailors to refine and adapt the design of its very successful First 20. Specifications. Design : Finot, Conq & Associates. Length Over All : 6,40 m - 21′. Hull Length : 6,25 m - 20'6″. Hull Beam : 2,48 m - 8'2″.

  11. First 22

    The First 22, based on "Clémentine", the Finot Group's well-received mini-tonner, is primarily a high-performance sailing yacht. Go to the ... Build My Boat. Homepage. The former BENETEAU sailing yachts. First (1977 - 1983) First 22. First 22. A surprisingly high-performance sailing yacht.

  12. BoatTest.com Reviews the Beneteau First 22

    The new Beneteau ASA First 22 has an LOA of 21′ (6.40 m), beam of 8'2″ (2.49 m) and a light displacement of 2,729 lbs. (1,238 kg). Overview While there are many small sailboats on the market, few have been designed specifically for the purpose of sailboat instruction — particularly in the 21′ (6.40 m) size range. And — sadly — many of the traditional boats that were used for ...

  13. Research 2015

    Description. Beneteau America and the ASA are revealing the fruit of their collaboration: the ASA First 22. A new ASA-exclusive sail training vessel using Beneteau's popular First 20 as its inspiration. Some of its features include an extended cockpit to give students and instructors more room, a rig designed specifically for sail training ...

  14. PDF u ŵ $-"44 *4 /08 */ 4&44*0

    r.Beneteau is now offering innovative buying and leasing programs for the ASA First 22 including after-sales support that will allow you to spend more time teaching your students and less time looking after your bo. t.Contact Beneteau and let's int roduce the next generation to the joy of saili. 410.990.0270 or [email protected].

  15. Beneteau First 22 sailboat by Beneteau

    Beneteau America, the American Sailing Association and SailTime have partnered to create the First Sail Workshop: an entry level workshop where participants ...

  16. Beneteau First 22 (2015-)

    The First 22 makes a perfect entry-level sailboat and is available to all, not just sailing schools. Beneteau and the American Sailing Association (ASA) have collaborated in creating the First 22, a fiberglass sailboat built specifically as a one-design sail training vessel. Its cockpit is extra large to accommodate 4 adult students and an ...

  17. Beneteau First 22 Boats for sale

    Make Beneteau. Model ASA First 22. Category Racer Boats. Length 22'. Posted Over 1 Month. 2016 Beneteau ASA First 22 The Beneteau ASA First 22 is an adaptation of the very popular Beneteau First 20. With large cockpit and tiller, it was conceived with sailing schools in mind, with a large cockpit, tiller and small cuddy cabin for stowage.

  18. New Beneteau-ASA First 22 Set to Debut at Annapolis Sailboat Show

    The ASA First 22 will be offered at $29,900 MSRP. Fabre further explained that Beneteau America negotiated a leasing program exclusive to ASA affiliate schools to help them get equipped quickly, while minimizing the upfront investment. The new ASA First 22 will be revealed at the 2014 Annapolis Sailboat Show, October 9th - 13th. ARCHITECT

  19. FIRST 22

    The First 22, based on "Clémentine", the Finot Group's well-received mini-tonner, is primarily a high-performance sailing yacht. Go to the ... Former BENETEAU sailboats. First (1977 - 1983) First 22. First 22. A surprisingly high-performance sailing yacht. Description; Specifications;

  20. Tag: First 22

    A pair of ASA First 22 sloops duking it out somewhere. Note sail number: "20," same on both, leftover from Beneteau's standard production model - the First 20. They're all the same size boat. But, all versions have these things in common: Hull. (Boat body) The size and shape are the same. Keel.

  21. FOUND: Owner's Manual for ASA First 22

    I am having trouble locating the owner's manual for the [2015] First 20/ASA First 22 (same hull and keel, different layout). In particular, I am interested in the schematic, parts list, and maintenance procedure for the keel-lifting mechanism. The seller reports an occasional small amount of water entry via the keel mechanism while sailing.

  22. Win a Beneteau ASA First 22!

    The United States Sailboat Show and Beneteau have teamed up to give away a brand new Beneteau ASA First 22 Sailboat!

  23. Design Review: Beneteau First 21.0

    A pair of ASA First 22 sloops duking it out somewhere. Note sail number: "20," same on both, leftover from Beneteau's standard production model - the First 20. They're all the same size boat. But, all versions have these things in common: Hull. (Boat body) The size and shape are the same. Keel.